After reading John chapter 4 and the the 4th chapter of The Jesus I Never Knew, share your thoughts on the needs of mankind and the interesting way God has addressed or not addressed those needs by allowing us so much freedom.
Why would God allow His creation so much freedom that we could choose to deny relationship with Him and even to deny the possibility of relationship with Him, or even His very existence.
What does it say about the character of a God who though omnipotent does not require or force worship and adoration?
Why does the Creator of the universe choose to communicate in such subtle ways? Why not impose His will as earthly leaders and governments seek to do?
Yancey said “Although power can force obedience, only love can summon a response of love, which is the one thing God wants from us…”As I thought about this, a series of contradictions were manifested (in my confused little brain).
ReplyDeleteUpon further thought, God showed me something really cool. I think there are really two things going on here: our mind’s free will and our heart’s free will.
In General, my perception of free will;
God chooses to give us free will so that we can choose a relationship with him. He doesn’t show us all his power and compel us to see he is God. On the other hand, God reveals himself to us enough to give us the opportunity to choose him, he doesn’t just leave us out in the cold. There is a balance, like God decided he wouldn’t stack the game in his favor, or the Devil’s.
But that brought up another question/observation… “Doesn’t it seem like sometimes the odds are in God’s favor (or the Devil’s favor)?” For instance in my life, with my parents, situation in life etc., it seems like the odds were overwhelmingly in God’s favor as to whether I would choose him. Ah ha!!!! Here’s where it gets interesting…But then I considered my brother, in the same family situation I was, but as he said himself, until recently “I knew God was real, but I didn’t love Him…” There is the difference between knowing God with our minds, and loving him with our hearts. There also is a difference between choosing God in with your mind (i.e. knowing that he is real), and choosing Him with your heart (loving, serving, submitting- a real relationship). The odds can seem to be stacked in God’s favor in certain people’s lives, but life’s circumstances can only bring us to a head-knowledge of God. There is something deeper behind choosing a heart-relationship with God, and God gives us that free will, a free will that is "un-stacked." Nothing, not life’s circumstances, not God forcing himself on us, makes us make that decision, nothing besides the will of our own hearts.
Would it be cheating if I tried to answer this in one sentence? He loves us. Inexplicably, consumingly, totally in love with us. It's not rational, because he has everything he could ever need. But for some reason He made us in his own image, and now he wants us to willingly accept Him. he wants us home, and our homecoming would not be special and dear to Him if he dragged us home kicking and screaming. It seems as if nothing hurts Him more than when we reject Him. He preferred DYING to allowing the Fall to be permanent. But at the same time, he guides us with the Spirit, because he knows how weak we are. he Spirit gives us just enough support to keep us going, until we come home to Him. And that is straight up dandy.
ReplyDelete"Straight up dandy?" Awesome Ribbs!!
ReplyDeleteWow, ribbs, nice stuff there!
ReplyDeleteWell, this has already been said, and everyone after this is going to say the same thing, but God just loves us. Period. Like Yancey says in his book, "Love has its own power, the only power ultimately capable of conquering the human heart." If God had imposed His will on us by force, we would only love Him (if at all) out of fear, which isn't really love at all. If we were just robots that God had programmed to do what He wants, we would never learn anything or grow at all. We wouldn't really enjoy our lives, and I don't think God would either. If I had a bunch of little robot children that did my bidding without question, that might seem appealing for a moment, but I'd get very bored very fast. If we didn't have free will, there would be no room for relationship between us and God. God's choice to give us the freedom to choose Him has made things infinitely better for us. Like I said before, God just loves us.
And I think another aspect of the situation is that we just can't comprehend why God does what He does, and He doesn't always tell us. Sometimes, that's just the way it is, and all we can do is accept it.
Kudos Thomas, Michael and Darrah. Well reasoned and written.
ReplyDeleteI feel like God, whose actions always operate on a cosmic, far-seeing level, always is going for the long con, so to speak. He made man flawed so that in the long run we could be saved on HIS terms, not our own. By giving us free will, informing us of our (daily) choice, and allowing evil to work against us, God created a situation where our salvation had both the most meaning possible and the most risk possible. He gambled everything of his that he might receive us in return. I have no idea what the end tally might look like. Is it possible that, out of all humans throughout history, only a scant few ever made the right choice? That a gift offered to all was received by a tiny minority? I'll probably never know, and I don't think I'd like to. This situation we're all in is the end result of his plan. I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. The stakes have never been higher, or the reward more so. God plays for keeps. I should too.
Everybody has some awsome insights! Okay, I definitely agree with Kennon about how God gave us free will so our salvation had the most meaning possible and the most risk. Maybe God gave us free will to make us actually WORK on our relationship with him so we appreciate it more.I guess..like, if he just simply controlled us, that would be the easy way out. We wouldn't appreciate God or our relationship with Him because we didn't grow (spiritually or otherwise). And, I mean, why would He take the easy way out? God loves us so incredibly much, why would He settle for us not knowing Him or loving Him as much as we could when He can use this other (loving) method and puts so much more meaning into it? I think. Sorry if that was confusing or so completely off of the original topic.
ReplyDeleteWell, it seems that it wouldn't be very satisfying for God if we were all just immediately programmed to love him. Where's the fun in that? if you wanted someone to get you a present, would it be more touching for them to give you exactly what you wanted? Or for have to hold them at gunpoint and force them to go to Walmart? I mean it may be hard to come up with the right present, and you may have to go to a bunch of different stores and return a few gifts, but in this circumstance, it really is the thought that counts. Life seem like the ultimate RTS, and God is watching, he's in control, but there's limited interaction with the big guy in the chair. But this is one of those, excuse the cliche, love will triumph all things. Even if we feel like isn't listening, it usually that we have our hands over our ears. And this whole thing probably doesn't make sense, but i don't particularly enjoy sharing my deeper feelings on things like this, so i was trying to compromise.
ReplyDeleteOh my lanta. You people are so smart and deep and enlightened. Can I just ditto what all y'all have said? Like for real, everything they said was spot on and totally understandable. I love it. I really don't think I could add much more. Alls I know is that I'm ridiculously thankful that God gave us free will, and that for some reason He let me be one of the ones to choose Him. Wait, that might not make sense. But oh well. Yay God. Oh, one thing. In response to Carlie's post, what's RTS? If someone sees this before class tomorrow, remind me to ask Carlie or just tell me yourself if you know and I'm just an idiot who doesn't get it.
ReplyDeleteI know others have said a lot about the following, and I completely agree with everything they said. God is love, and His driving force is also love, it's what makes Him, Him. His loving character and grace make me (and the rest of humanity) want to be with Him and love Him back, even though I am indefinitely less capable of it than He is.
ReplyDeleteI think the needs of mankind are simply to love and be loved, all other needs would come from this one all-encompassing need. Even superficial stuff fits into this need for love and acceptance.
I think that God has addressed the needs of mankind (to love and be love) in letting Man choose to love or reject Him. Of course, I have no clue what His real reasons for allowing us so much freedom, but my guess is that He just wants us to love Him for who He is. Without free will this love (that we want and need) would only exist in a state of love controlled by fear, which would not be love at all. Thank God that He allowed us to have free will. The only possible reason that I would like to be controlled as a puppet by God would be that I would have a very easy life free of problems, yet the problem of either getting board or getting mad and wanting to become the puppeteer would always be present.
God's choice to allow us the freedom to accept or deny Him is an extremely big gamble but one that had to be made. This says at least one thing about God's character (God being omnipotent yet not requiring or forcing worship and adoration), He is interested in having REAL relationships with his created beings and children, not being a puppeteer.
As to coach's queries of "why God (the Creator) choose to communicate in such subtle ways? and Why not impose His will as earthly leaders and governments seek to do?", I have no clue what all of His reasons for doing so are. Although my one guess would be that He wants us to love Him for Himself; and He wants us to seek Him out and enjoy loving Him when we find Him.
Now that I think about it, what Satan was offering Jesus in return for bowing down to him was a chance to be a god like the ancient roman and Greek gods who only lived to please themselves and to punish their subordinates (their created beings and lower deities). Thank God that Jesus turned down Satan's offer!
"For Jesus to save others, quite simply, He could not save Himself." (pg.73)
After reading the part in the book about Russia and Communism, I think that God wanted to not compel morality to make the joys of yielding to it all the greater.
"Goodness cannot be imposed externally, from the top down; it must grow internally, from the bottom up." (pg. 76)
And here is random other thought, I found it interesting that Jesus would choose to tell his disciples about this one portion of his own struggle of coping with being both fully God and fully man, He talks about this one in great detail while doing so with so few other struggles (if any).
I know others have said a lot about the following, and I completely agree with everything they said. God is love, and His driving force is also love, it's what makes Him, Him. His loving character and grace make me (and the rest of humanity) want to be with Him and love Him back, even though I am indefinitely less capable of it than He is.
ReplyDeleteI think the needs of mankind are simply to love and be loved, all other needs would come from this one all-encompassing need. Even superficial stuff fits into this need for love and acceptance.
I think that God has addressed the needs of mankind (to love and be love) in letting Man choose to love or reject Him. Of course, I have no clue what His real reasons for allowing us so much freedom, but my guess is that He just wants us to love Him for who He is. Without free will this love (that we want and need) would only exist in a state of love controlled by fear, which would not be love at all. Thank God that He allowed us to have free will. The only possible reason that I would like to be controlled as a puppet by God would be that I would have a very easy life free of problems, yet the problem of either getting board or getting mad and wanting to become the puppeteer would always be present.
God's choice to allow us the freedom to accept or deny Him is an extremely big gamble but one that had to be made. This says at least one thing about God's character (God being omnipotent yet not requiring or forcing worship and adoration), He is interested in having REAL relationships with his created beings and children, not being a puppeteer.
As to coach's queries of "why God (the Creator) choose to communicate in such subtle ways? and Why not impose His will as earthly leaders and governments seek to do?", I have no clue what all of His reasons for doing so are. Although my one guess would be that He wants us to love Him for Himself; and He wants us to seek Him out and enjoy loving Him when we find Him.
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ReplyDeleteI agree with most everything that's been said. God loves us with a love so extravagant and beyond anything that we could ever understand. In our human mindset it doesn't make sense why he would let so many people remain in sin, when he has the answer and the way to bring them out of that sin. But God wants a relationship based on more than compelling us to follow him, he wants our hearts. When we receive his calling through the Spirit and realize our need for a savior, it is a beautiful thing to God when we fall at his feet, unable to go on without him.
ReplyDeleteOne thing i must say, which will, i'm sure, lead to much opposition.We do NOT choose God. In our sinful state we have no way of making the "right" decision to follow him. The sinner only desires more sin; without the Spirit FIRST working in our hearts and changing us so that we see our need for him, there is no hope for the sinner. God chooses his people. He knows who they are before the foundation of the world, and in and of ourselves, we are incapable of choosing to live as Christ.
Thankfully, God is merciful and draws us to himself, working through the Spirit, to soften our hardened hearts, and bring us to repentance.
God does not need to compel us to follow him, he needs nothing from us. God simply desires a relationship with his people, he loves us so much that he puts us with all the garbage we throw at him day after day when we reject him and mock him through our words and actions. Love that forgives again and again, and continues to seek relationship is one that is like no other. Ridiculously extravagant.
I didn't read what everyone else wrote (but what I read was great!), so I may repeat some stuff...
ReplyDeleteI find it so comforting that Jesus was tempted too, I think I need to remember that more often. When Satan used Peter to tempt Jesus, his immediate response was "get behind me Satan". Those words are so important and powerful.
As for why God gave us free will, I, of course don't know for sure ;) But I know that God would not want a group of mindless little people following him, just because they were forced too. He is God of the entire Universe and so he doesn't need us, but he wants us, because we have a choice to love him in return. I really liked the story about the son who strayed away, and that the father said that he appreciated that son's love almost more than his other children's love. Our God is similar to that. He loves when we love him, even if it's just a little with our fragile, broken hearts. I am amazed by how much God appreciates the little things. Just a little faith healed the lame man.
I also think that we can appreciate God's love more when we aren't forced to accept it. When we drift away from his love and then look back on what we are missing we appreciate his love more, and so bring him more glory. It's so crazy that a God who has the ENTIRE Universe glorifying him wants us to love him.... and he loves us too!
I find it interesting that God would rather give himself up for someone who choose not to love him, than to force them to follow him. He wants the heart.
Its so good to have a God who we can't fully understand. More to be in awe of and more to try to understand.
Everybody else has pretty much covered everything (good job guys!) even though I didn't read all of them. But the answer is so powerful that it deserves to be repeated as many times as there are people in this class...and more. Like Michael said, the answer itself is pretty simple: He loves us. God created us for a relationship with him, a loving relationship which is composed of the best aspects of father/child, good king/devoted subject, and best friends. He doesn't want a forced relationship with brain-dead dazzled robots (if he would force "love" from miracles), or sullen, grudging slaves (if he would force "love" by power). He doesn't want a "relationship" of a politician to his people, who only wants them to agree with him and support him, not to love him, he wants willing lovers, who would love him because they want to. I know this example has been used a lot, but it is about as close as we can get to understanding this: would you rather have a friend who chose to be your friend because they love you, or a robot programmed to be your friend, or someone paid to be your friend or forced on pain of death to be your friend? The first one is the most satisfying realtionship by far. It is the one God wants with us. And it was worth so much to him that he would rather come to earth in weakness and die in shame to attain it than to come in glory and power and lose it. And really, if you think about it, such incredible acts of love and sacrifice as Jesus showed out of love for us is an incredible enough miracle for me to love him--not for his power, but for who he is.
ReplyDeleteWell,i'll apologize now for not being as deep or as well written as the rest of you. but like Ribbs said it's all because he loves us. I mean he died for us guys that in itself is pretty epic. And this perfect God, who does not need us desires a relationship with him. i am so thankfully that even when i am being the biggest jerk ever he still loves me. His grace and mercy blows my mind. But Bethany, i semi see what you're saying but (and please don't hate me cause this is just my opinion)BUT i think that we do get to choose God. he gave us a free will and yes many many people don't choose him, but many do. Yes he does and has known since before the beginning of time who would and would not choose him, but still WE choose whether or not we will pick Jesus. Thankfully he is so patient with us that we realize our need for salvation and we gain eternal life!
ReplyDeleteZack writes...
ReplyDeleteLet's take an example from the government. Whenever they try to force something onto their people, does it ever end up going well? As humans, we don't like to be forced into things. We're so proud that we think we deserve our free will. When, in actuality, we deserve nothing. It's God's gift to us. He loves us so much, he would rather see genuine love in us when we CHOOSE him, than forced love.
I'm sure this has all been said, seeing as I'm posting super late.....
Sorry for the lateness of this post. I totally agree with what's been said up to this point about God's immense love and passion for us. (As has been said) God does not need us in the slightest. He would be just as eternally content had he not created the world and its inhabitants. But I feel so incredibly lucky that God WANTS us. I believe God gave us free will to glorify himself through our choice to love and worship him. Because the ultimate purpose of the Universe and all of the spiritual realm is the Glorification of God. And I am so glad to be a part of that; that God wants me to be a part of that. As far as Bethany and Gracie's little arguement, I'm not enirely sure what's what, but I might argue that the prompting of the Spirit is not ignored unless it wants to be. If that makes any kind of sense.
ReplyDeleteSamuel writes...
ReplyDeleteI just think its incredible how jesus humbled himself evej before the cross. From birth, to his temptation, to the times he is pestered by the pharisees, jesus is focused on us and his mission. He very easily could have eaten a tastey loaf of rock or soared through the air, or performed many other signs, but instead of showing off his power he humbled himself because pf his great love for us. He simply desires for me to respond to his offer to have a relationship with him. Honestly, if jesus had shown satan up in the desert or came as a superhuman ruler, i dont think my relationship with him would be nearly as sincere or personal.
This is a togh topic for me for me. For a few reasons. I fully believe that God wants us to make the choice to accept him. And not deny him. I know that he wants us to accept him into our lives. I feel like God created us in his image to glorify him. And what i'm struggeling the most with right now is the realization that I was made solely to glorify him. And everything else is really of no importance. That being said, he still uses us and gives us a great life through glorifying him! A big reason this topic is hard for me is that I believe everyone is given the choice about God. But I absolutely know that God seeked me out, and that was when I started trying to live my life for him. And I know i was given the choice. But i don't really feel like I made it. So much as I feel like he absolutely came after me, and I chose to accept that after i was saved. And even tho i know God wants a reationship with everyone, and seeks it out. For me i feel that i didn't really even make a choice. I guess i don't really understand why. But it just seems like i didn't make a choice. I don't know how to explain it. Because I like know i chose him. But it doesn't seem like blind faith, when i realized that he was pulling at me to follow him. hope that made some sort of sense....
ReplyDeleteKat writes...
ReplyDeleteSo considering that I can not figure out this whole blog thing because the darn thing hates me, I have no idea what everyone else has said. So if I am off topic, repeat too much, don't make sense, or am just not as deep, I apologize ahead of time. :) For me, trying to wrap my head around or explain the reasons of why God does stuff and how he does it, is just very confusing and difficult. And trying to explain his reasons I think we will never be quite sure why and how he does things..but I mean he is God and we are little humans so how can we expect to be able to understand completely. But I think that he has legit reasons and explainations that one day he will be able to explain them to us.
So for the question of why God would allow and grant humans so much freedom, I'm not completely sure. But I guess other than God who honestly is 100% sure? The only way that I can make sense out of it is that even though he has all that he could ever need, he created us, he loves us, and he needs and wants that love to be given back to him. Very easily he could just make us love him, need him, care for him, believe and trust in him. But is there real truth or meaning in that? no not really because those acts didn't come from our own thoughts and heart but we were forced to do that. It's like when my parents ask me to clean the house or my room and I obey but don't really want to do it, it gets done but it doesn't come from my heart. My parents always say that it is the greatest feeling when they come home to see that I, on my own, have picked up the house or cleaned the kitchen or something just simple and they didn't even have to ask me to do it. It is a completely different feeling when you know that someone does something for you out of their heart and not because they are made to. So I think for God it is the same thing, it is more meaningful to him when we choose to love him and believe and trust in him on our own instead of him programming us or making us do it. The choice and freedom that God gives us, makes us work at wanting and genuinely trying to gain a relationship with him. This makes us appreciate the relationship we have with God because we are the ones chosing to have one. And I think that the love, the want and need we have for God all intensifies due to the fact of us being given the choice to either pick God and a relationship with him or reject him. And I guess that would be the end. hope it makes sense! :)
Paige writes...
ReplyDeleteI believe God gave us free will to put both good and evil in the world. If everyone was good and believed in Him there would never be a difference between the world and heaven. God wants us to believe in Him and wants us to have a relationship with Him. God put bad things on this earth to make us strive to live a holy life and be involved with him. Though no one can always do the right thing God wants us to try our hardest. :)
Katie writes
ReplyDeleteGod gave us the option of knowing his grace he doesn't force it on us cause he wants our willing love and friendship if it was forced then it wouldn't mean anything special
God loves us uncoditionally. Even though we screw up so much everyday and deny him, he still loves us so much. We are his children and all he wants is for us to have faith in him and know the fact that he gave his son who paid for our sins. God gave us a choice. Even though it's obvious which route we should take in our life, it's still hard. And God knows that. All we can do is lean on God's shoulder and pray and Let him help us through the day. He wants us in heaven with him, and he hopes that we'll make good choices in our life. God has a good reason for every thing, even the tiny things that seem stupid to us. It's just all a part of God's amazing plan.
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